14 de agosto 2024
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Nicolas Maduro "should not be forced to present the ballot counts, because anything he presents will be fake and will only delay what we already know to be the truth, that Edmundo Gonzalez won. What we need is for Maduro to acknowledge the results so we can start a transition process that has as its deadline the inauguration of Edmundo Gonzalez on January 10, 2025," says, Leopoldo Lopez, founder of the Voluntad Popular party, who is in exile in Spain after being imprisoned in Caracas, Venezuela for seven years.
In a conversation with the program Esta Semana and CONFIDENCIAL, the Venezuelan opposition leader urged his people to "remain mobilized, organized, and not lose hope. That is the most important thing at this time," he said about a process that "we know is not a straight line and will not be easy. The dictatorship is resisting and will resist." In terms of international pressure, he advocates for "aligning all possible forces –governments, public opinion, non-governmental organizations– towards a common position, which is to recognize what happened on July 28."
Lopez continues: "We hope the results are recognized and that Edmundo Gonzalez is sworn in on January 10, and that this will have an impact in Nicaragua, Cuba and Bolivia. We are at a juncture where what happens in Venezuela is going to influence what may or may not happen in the continent's other countries that are also subjected to autocracy."
The Electoral Council declared Maduro the winner without presenting the evidence from polling place tallies to back up their claim. What impact has the publication of 82% of the ballot counts –presented by the opposition and demonstrating Edmundo Gonzalez' victory and Maduro's fraud– had in Venezuela and internationally?
Two weeks ago an election was held and Edmundo Gonzalez won resoundingly, with 70% of the vote. If the 5 million Venezuelans living abroad had been included, it would have been more than 80%.
The ballot counts were published because we organized ourselves to be present in all the voting centers, to have a record of the votes. These tally sheets are available. You can review them, your audience can review them, any international organization can review them.
The results have been verified by the only observer present during the elections, the Carter Center. On Friday the Carter Center issued a report, in which it clearly stated that Edmundo Gonzalez won the election. It also said there was no cyber attack, as Nicolas Maduro has tried to claim, and that the results are what they are.
What impact has that had? The impact has been to affirm that we won the election, not the tallies. The votes are what had an impact, the people are what had an impact. We won in all the country's 24 states. We won in all 335 municipalities of the country. We won with the same proportion in both the poorest and in middle class areas. And this is what has really had an impact on Venezuelans, knowing that we already have a registered majority, reflected in the vote count, and this has had an impact on the international community as well.
The autocracy pays no attention to the vote or to the tally sheets or to the evidence, or to the election itself. The only thing they are interested in is that Maduro remains in power. This is why China, Russia, Iran, Cuba, Belarus, North Korea, Eritrea, Nicaragua, and Bolivia, have validated the fraud, while the democratic countries of the region –both left and right– and the democratic countries of the world have questioned the results presented by Maduro. Many of them have already recognized the results that show that Edmundo Gonzalez is the winner of this election. Those countries are Argentina, Uruguay, Costa Rica, Panama, Peru and the United States.
Maduro is firm in his position of not presenting the tally sheets. He has resorted to the Superior Court of Justice. Can the national protest and international pressure force him to present the ballot counts?
What Maduro must be forced to do isn't to present the ballot counts, because anything he presents will be fake and will only delay what we already know to be the truth, that Edmundo Gonzalez won. What we need is for Maduro to acknowledge the results so we can start a transition process that has as its deadline the inauguration of Edmundo Gonzalez on January 10, 2025.
We know this won't be easy. The dictatorship is entrenched and Maduro is resorting to the only things he has: the force of the military and police high command, persecution, jail, torture and death. This is what Maduro is counting on.
Maduro doesn't have a following. Chavismo has been eradicated from the country, to the surprise of some who still saw Venezuela as a divided country. Venezuela is not divided. 80% of Venezuelans want to get rid of Maduro, and I dare say that the 30% that voted for Maduro, if they could have really voted freely, we would be talking about Maduro getting less than 10% of the vote.
The diplomatic initiative
The diplomatic initiative by Brazil, Mexico and Colombia has demanded that Maduro present the tally sheets to the Electoral Council and submit them for independent verification. They have also offered to be a kind of mediator to look for a negotiated solution. They have already proposed it twice, but the government isn't budging. How much more time can or should they wait and what does the opposition expect from this initiative?
It is an initiative that certainly supports us so we can move forward in the corresponding negotiation process. We're not negotiating the result of the election –that is crystal clear– but rather how the transition is going to take place. This is what would be negotiated. This has been reiterated by Edmundo Gonzalez and Maria Corina Machado. If Brazil, Mexico, and Colombia can help with this in these terms, then of course this initiative is more than welcome.
We have to be very careful that these announcements about negotiations about which nothing is known –in fact they are just rumors– to make sure they are not just a tool to delay the recognition by countries about what happened in Venezuela.
You mentioned the governments that have already recognized Edmundo as president-elect and that do not recognize Maduro's victory. What comes after this? What does the opposition expect? Could the phenomenon of Juan Guaidó as interim president be repeated while the dictator continues in power, controlling all the levers of power?
This situation is different. The 2019 situation was that Maduro closed the 2018 election. We did not participate in this election and –according to the Constitution– the President of the Assembly should have assumed the Presidency to promote what we in fact had just now, which is an election. There was an election, and it's already clear that Edmundo Gonzalez is not an interim president or any other alternative to what the Constitution establishes. He is, right now, the president-elect, and will be the sworn-in president as of January 10, 2025. This is the situation.
We know this isn't a straight line, and it won't be easy. We know that the dictatorship is resisting and will resist. Maduro has powerful allies. Fear also plays a part, and there's some demobilization happening. We know all the obstacles that lie ahead, but this is the road we must travel.
How are protests that broke out in Venezuela two weeks ago and the mobilizations to defend the vote and the triumph of Edmundo Gonzalez similar to or different from the "La Salida" movement in which you participated in 2017 and for which you were arrested and taken to jail?
In 2014, we had the La Salida movement with María Corina Machado, Juan Guaidó, some other leaders, Antonio Ledezma, and myself. We called for people to take to the streets after Maduro stole his first election of 2013. We made the call with the intention of activating the Constitution. Tens of thousands of people came out and that landed many of us in jail. I spent the next seven years in confinement and I saw that moment as a turning point. Until that moment Venezuela was still thought of as a democracy – a democracy with problems, but still a democracy. That was how it was perceived from the outside, and that was how it was perceived even by many Venezuelans.
This year has seen a shift in which Maduro's repression has increased in every sense: military and police repression, social control, limiting of communications. It has been ten years during which we have seen 15,000 arbitrary arrests, hundreds of radio stations, television stations, and media outlets closed in Venezuela, persecution of all dissidents, not only for political actions but even of people who just post messages on social media.
Exactly two weeks ago we entered another stage. Starting Sunday last week, we've seen a gigantic, exponential increase in the levels of repression, persecution, censorship and madness by the dictator Nicolas Maduro.
A lot has been said about the similarity we could have with Nicaragua, and I believe that Nicolas Maduro is seeing what happened in Nicaragua as one of his reference points. He has seen how Daniel Ortega took away the election and how he has imposed levels of repression that affect every sector, including the Catholic Church, as is already happening in Venezuela as well.
The way out of the Venezuelan crisis
How do you assess the position of the Bolivarian Armed Forces? We have seen General Padrino, who is aligned with Nicolás Maduro, in a clear coup-supporting position, with the Armed Forces backing the fraud. Is this a monolithic position of the top military leadership? Can it be affected by the protests or by external pressure?
The military high command has indeed decided to support the fraud and, as you rightly say, to execute a coup d'état. What happened was the execution of a coup d'état that seized the results and sought to impose itself by brute force and the institutional force controlled by Maduro, which occurred on Sunday.
When we talk about the Armed Forces, there is undoubtedly a reality among the elite, but it is a reality different from the vast majority of the other members of the Armed Forces. I am not part of the military, but I lived in a military unit for four of the seven years I was in prison, and I can tell you that the Venezuelan soldiers are Venezuelans. That is very obvious, but important to remember. Their children, their parents, their problems, their longings, and their frustrations are Venezuelan and that makes the base of the military structure and the police structure uncomfortable with this situation. We saw this last week in the protests when policemen took off their uniforms and joined the protests, and when the soldiers decided not to repress and joined the protests.
I believe that sentiment is there. It is not massive at the moment, what we are seeing is repression with all the force of Maduro’s regime. That deployment includes paramilitary groups—groups that the dictatorship has been arming over the years—and with total arbitrariness, they have detained 1,200 people, but Maduro himself says there are more than 2,600. The number could be between 3,000 and 4,000. They talk about 26 deaths, but other sources mention 70, 80, or 100 deaths, and there is no information because the dictatorship has been suffocating independent information.
In Venezuela, on Friday, Maduro announced the closure of communication platforms such as Signal, and mass communication platforms such as Twitter (now X) were already banned in Venezuela. Maduro likely wants to continue this process of completely isolating communications, which was already precarious. But what does he intend to do now? It is a total shutdown of communication to Venezuela and within Venezuela.
What solution does the opposition propose to address this crisis? You mentioned that Edmundo González, the elected president, should be sworn in on January 10. How do we reach that moment? There is talk of street protests and also of a negotiated exit. What is the opposition willing to negotiate with the regime if they manage to get Maduro to the negotiating table?
The main condition is that we remain active internally, continue the struggle, stay mobilized and organized, and do not lose hope. That is the most important thing at the moment. On an international level, it is crucial to align all possible forces: governments, public opinion, and non-governmental organizations, towards a common point of debate among all, which is to recognize what happened on July 28.
This is obvious, but some external voices come with strategies that have nothing to do with this or propose a review of the results. They suggest a unity government or a repeat of elections. I don’t believe these alternatives should be on the table when Venezuelans have already decisively expressed themselves [through their votes].
If this negotiation proposal does not come to fruition or fails, you mentioned that Maduro is inclined to replicate Ortega's forceful solution imposed in Nicaragua. What impact would this have on Venezuelan society and the American continent?
We are at a juncture where what happens in Venezuela will impact within and for Venezuela. Of course, Maduro is doing everything possible to suppress and turn Venezuela into North Korea, Cuba, Eritrea, or Nicaragua. That is Maduro's dream, and, in the face of that, we must resist with all the tools we have.
But if the opposite occurs, which is what we hope for, that the results are recognized and Edmundo González Urrutia is sworn in on January 5, it will have an impact in Nicaragua, Cuba,and Bolivia. In other words, we are at a juncture where what happens in Venezuela will somehow influence what may or may not occur in other countries also subjected to autocracy on the continent.
Thank you, Leopoldo.
Thank you very much, Carlos, and to your entire audience. And thank you for the work you do. If I may, to your audience in Nicaragua, both inside and outside Nicaragua, we say, brothers and sisters, this is the same struggle. Yours is the Venezuelan struggle, and Venezuela's struggle is Nicaragua's struggle because we are united with the same dream: the dream of being free, of having a functioning country, of having free elections, the rule of law, and opportunities for all our citizens. So, thank you very much, and let’s continue this fight together.
This article was published in Spanish in Confidencial and translated by our staff. To get the most relevant news from our English coverage delivered straight to your inbox, subscribe to The Dispatch.
